World War II - Crash Landing

Question 1.	John Stevenson Trinity, Edinburgh	- Crash or Landing on Carrick Knowe Golf Course

Reply 1.	Ken Smith Calgary, Alberta, Canada	- No Planes - Home Guard - Butterfly Bombs
Reply 2.	George T Smith Calgary, Alberta, Canada	- Crash or Landing?
Reply 3.	Brian Farish Saughtonhall, Edinburgh	- Not Carrick Knowe - Possibly Murrayfield
Reply 4.	Maurice McIlwrick North Gyle, Edinburgh	- Not Carrick Knowe - Another Golf Course - Golf Course Book
Reply 5.	John Chittenden Gosport, Hampshire, England	- Carrick Knowe
Reply 6.	Lilian Young Hamilton Square, New Jersey, USA	- Carrick Knowe

Recollections 1.	George T Smith Calgary, Alberta, Canada	- Craiglockhart School - Aircraft Crash
Recollections 2.	Alison Smith (nee Mavor) Whiterock, British Columbia, Canada	- Journey Home - Location of the Crash - Rumours - Fortunate

Question

John Stevenson

Trinity, Edinburgh

John Stevenson, Trinity, Edinburgh, wrote:

Question

Crash or Landing

Carrick Knowe Golf Course

"I have had a query from a friend who is writing a book on 'Golf Courses of West Edinburgh'. He has a story that during WW2 an aeroplane British/German (?) crashed or landed on Carrick Knowe Golf Course.

I have checked 'Scotsman archive', and have spoken with a few folk who lived in the area at that time, but no one has any knowledge.

Do you know anything about a crash or landing?"

John Stevenson, Trinity, Edinburgh: September 24, 2010

Reply to John?

If you know anything about the incident that John mentions above, please email me, then I'll pass on your message to him.

Thank you.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: September 29, 2010

Reply

Ken Smith

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Thank you to Ken Smith who replied:

Carrick Knowe Golf Course

No Planes

"I lived throughout the war across the tracks from Carrick Knowe golf course and do not recall any planes landing. If such happened, I know it would have been the talk of the town plus it would be wedged in my memory as have many other events from that time.

There were very high poles with attached guy wires throughout the course to prevent glider landings."

Home Guard

"The LDV (Local Defence Volunteers), later known as the Home Guard, were on the golf course practising most of the time, especially at weekends. When they were not there,we would sneak across the tracks and go hunting for shrapnel from hand grenades they tossed at bunkers, etc.

Butterfly Bombs

"There was a rumor that circulated around school that `butterfly bombs` had been found on the course. This was at a time when documentaries were shown in the schools and cinemas about them, advising you not to go near or touch any of the brightly colored objects but to report them to the `bobby` or Air Raid Warden. (This could pose a problem as we were not supposed to be on the closed golf course in the first place!)"

Ken Smith, Calgary, Alberta, Canada: September 29, 2010

Reply

George T Smith

Nanaimo, Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada

Thank you to George T Smith who added:

Crash or Landing?

"The story about a landing or crash on Carrick Knowe golf course rang no bells with me, a former souvenir hound."

George T Smith, Nanaimo, Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada: September 30, 2010

Reply

Brian Farish

Saughtonhall, Edinburgh

Thank you to Brian Farish who wrote:

Crash or Landing?

Not Carrick Knowe

"Whilst trying to research a totally different subject relating to Edinburgh during the war years, I came upon the item re aircraft in Carrick Knowe Golf Course.

I have lived in proximity to this Golf Course for over 75 years, played on the course and knew of people who used the course for Home Guard practice on Sundays during the war . I can assure John Stevenson that no such event took place on Carrick Knowe golf course."

Possibly Murrayfield

"However, from the depths of my memory, I have a feeling that an RAF aircraft, presumably out of Turnhouse, did in fact make a crash landing during the war on a golf course on the south side of the city. It may have been Craiglockhart, but I am not too sure. I hope this helps."

Brian Farish, Saughtonhall, Edinburgh: October 27, 2010

Reply

Maurice McIlwrick
(McIlwrick)
The name is not very clear in Aerial font

North Gyle, Edinburgh

Thank you to Maurice McIlwrick who wrote:

Not Carrick Knowe

"I am the person who started the chase for a crashed aircraft at Carrick Knowe!

I had lunch with John Stevenson and mentioned my quest. I had already checked with Brian Farish who I knew and had already confirmed no aircraft crashed there."

Another Golf Course?

"So. I'm now looking for an aircraft that may have crashed elsewhere in West Edinburgh on a golf course! At present, there are 36 golf courses to the west of a line drawn through the Castle north and south, going west out as far as Linlithgow.

Golf Course Book

"I am writing a the book on the unusual features of the golf courses, past and present, in West Edinburgh. Consequently, I would value any information that I could incorporate.

The book is not for profit. It's only as a hobby. I'd like to make it available to the courses I describe."

Maurice McIlwrick: November 19, 2010

Reply to Maurice?

If you have any information that you'd like to pass on to Maurice, please email me, then I'll pass on your message to him.

Thank you.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: November 26, 2010

Reply

John Chittenden

Gosport, Hampshire, England

Thank you to John Chittenden who wrote:

Carrick Knowe

"I have spoken to my father (also John Chittenden) and his brother (Arthur Chittenden) at separate times. They both confirm that an aircraft did crash land on Carrick Knowles golf course.

It happened in the late-1940s. Both my father and his brother lived at 23 Glendevon park, which backs onto the old railway line and golf course. My dad remembers that it crashed near to the bridge that you go under to enter the golf course

If you go under the bridge and turn right, there used to be doors set into the embankment in which the tractor and grass cutting equipment were kept. The aircraft came to rest near there.

My father's brother remembers that a large trailer came from the Royal Air Force to retrieve the aircraft. So it appear to have been an RAF aircraft."

John Chittenden, Gosport, Hampshire, England: March 25, 2012

Reply

Lilian Young

Hamilton Square, New Jersey, USA

Thank you to Lilian Young who wrote:

To the South of Corstorphine Road

"Regarding the plane which crashed in Edinburgh, we lived at Saughton Loan and when we heard of the crash all the adults and children walked along Saughton Hall across Balgreen Road and went towards Pinkhill station.

The plane was in a field there and our local Home Guard and members of the service were there. The service men had guns and we were kept at length by the Home Guard.

This field would be located across Corstorphine Road from the area of the Zoo, so perhaps it was close to the gold course at Carrick Knowe.

My brother loved planes and has always maintained that it was a German Plane, but that is a 'family legend' that I am unable to prove as my lovely brother has passed away

Another thing I recall is that there was snow on the roadway and in the field so that perhaps dates it closer."

Lilian Young, Hamilton Square, New Jersey: March 26, 2012

Recollections

George Smith

Nanaimo, Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada

Thank you to George Smith for sending me recollections of a plane crash in Edinburgh during World War II. George tells me that this was one of several aircraft crashes in the Edinburgh area during World War II

George wrote

Craiglockhart School

"I recently had a vivid recollection of an event in a wartime classroom at Craiglockhart school. One sunny day, we were startled to hear an unfamiliar loud noise followed by a crackling noise."

Aircraft Crash

"Some pupils left their seats, ran to the west-facing windows but saw nothing. We learned the following day that these noises were those of a plane crash on a piece of waste ground near the pedestrian bridge over the canal at the top of Alan Park Drive.

By the time I went to the site it had been cleared of wreckage and wartime censorship kept much of the details secret. I knew the area fairly well and remember that there had been some sort of anti- aircraft gun emplacement there early in the war."

George Smith, Nanaimo, Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada, September 23, 2011

Recollections

Alison Smith (nee Mavor)

Whiterock, British Columbia, Canada

George mentioned that his friend, Alison Smith (nee Mavor), who lived close to the plane crash in 'Recollections 5 above, also remembered the crash.

George passed on Alison's comments to me.

Alison wrote:

Journey Home

"On the day of the crash, my sister and I arrived at the top of Craiglockhart View, on our way home from school, to find barricades across the street and a policeman standing guard.

He asked our names and what we were doing there. Luckily, our Mum was on the watch and came running up. She confirmed we were her daughters and all lived at No. 2.

We were whisked into the house and told about the plane crash but kept well guarded so we could not go and look."

Location of the Crash

"There are many conflicting stories because we all remember things differently.

The bomber did not crash into the back garden of a house. It passed over the flat area on the south side of the Union Canal where we all had allotments to 'Dig for Victory' and hit the steep slope of grassy area at the top, between two houses flanking the vacant ground. The house to the east had more damage than that on the west.

Rumour had it that the pilot tried to land on the School sports ground at Meggetland on the north side of the canal. The crew tried to wave the children off the field but, assuming it to be friendly greetings, the youngsters just returned the waves. Whether or not that is true, what is obvious is that these brave young men gave their lives to ensure that they would harm neither the bungalows nor the inhabitants."

Rumours

"As was usual in those days, we kids were told very little, but we knew that the plane had burned and that all on board must have died in the explosion.

Another rumour was that the crew were all Northern American, but we now know that four were British and one American. The site had a morbid fascination for us and was not a very pleasant thought. These airmen come into my mind on November 11, each year."

Fortunate

"Only now, researching this information after hearing from my friend George, do I realise fully how fortunate we all were, thanks to these five airmen."

Acknowledgements

- Article by Sandra Dicke in The Scotsman: February 18, 2011.

- Article in Scotsman Archive web site

- Article in Commonwealth Forum web site

Alison Smith (nee Mavor), Whiterock, British Columbia, Canada, 2011